RE: the web revival space as a refuge for harmful ideas: part II

bigot
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

With that out of the way, let’s begin.

“I think the web revival has been a very creative and kind space full of people that might not be as visible and loud elsewhere – many of which are minorities and other oppressed groups. A lot of webrings are based on these facets of life and identities, and in my view, it is important to protect what this space has given people. It is therefore important to make sure that the scene is not welcoming people who are posing an active threat to the many people already engaging openly, honestly and in a vulnerable way on here to create something great. Our spaces have a responsibility to watch out for being overrun by people with views that cannot be tolerated anymore, because they are intolerant of us. And it is important that you vet the sites you engage with, and the sites you link to and whose webrings you join, closely.”

Ava, treating those who have opposing views to your own as a pariah, and suggesting to others to openly discriminate against folks based on different political views to your own so that they don’t get “overrun by people with views that cannot be tolerated anymore“, is the very definition of bigotry. It’s complete intolerance toward a group of people, and the sad thing is the hypocrisy I see in your post doesn’t even surprise me, because I have met many whom are just like you. The thing with bigotry is that it does not stop being bigotry just because the bigotry you participate in is popular, or even widely accepted bigotry. Bigotry is still bigotry, regardless of which group it is directed towards. As for my own webring, I would never discriminate and tell someone they can not join because they are trans, left, right, black, white, whatever. I may not agree with everyone’s political views or personal lifestyle choices, and yes, I am very vocal about my thoughts, but I would never stoop to that level and encourage everyone who is more politically right minded in this community to disassociate with anyone more politically left, or because they’re a certain race, or sexual orientation, or whatever have you. I support freedom, and I think everyone has the right to have a voice in this community, not just the groups of people I politically agree with.

“I’ve recently come across such a personal website, and they have been very prominent in the spaces within the web revival and small web community recently. I was approached by them about joining their webring and I chose not to for a variety of reasons, and I thought that was that. However, there is an interesting blog post now that I want to dissect that serves as a possible example for some of my points, and I also feel like countering some of the claims. “

Well, I appreciate you mentioning that you’ve seen my invitation, although you’ve never responded to me directly, which is fine. I suppose we can back and forth via blog posts. I would have been open to you just saying no to me personally, but here we are so let’s get it all out. I do find it interesting that you seem to be one of my consistent visitors, reading my blog posts, and following me around the web revival, despite not enjoying the kind of content I post. Not many folks would make that much of an effort to follow someone they don’t like, but if it’s for the sake of creating content then I suppose we both can participate.

“This is one of those cases when the views that could be a deciding factor in whether you feel safe and okay with this person or not are hidden away in a specific section, and locked behind a warning. Personally, I find this not helpful: People deserve to know what they are getting into, and if this is an important part of someone’s identity and feelings, they should be comfortable with being upfront about it. Hiding it away, to me, is suggesting that the original poster might deep down already know that there is something not okay with what is hidden away. Why else would someone feel like they need to hide it away for strangers to like them? I can honestly say that I have had no one ever block me for my views in a conversation, and I have received multiple very kind e-mails about my smol.pub and website. I don’t feel like I have to hide anything away – it is definitely possible.”

Ava, I am very comfortable and upfront about my feelings. If I wasn’t, I would not have put it on my website in the first place. Not only that, the warning page makes it pretty obvious what you’re getting into before you even go in. The page explicitly states that the section will show you “harsh, dark, and even disturbing truths and strong opinions“, so you very much knew what you were getting into before you went in there, because I told you upfront. The reason I have a section for it that people need to consent to seeing it first, is because I know they are triggering topics and I want to be able to interact with folks of all walks of life no matter their background. But not only that, I know how a lot of folks in your community behave. I mean, just look at what you opened with after your bullet points, when you said “Our spaces have a responsibility to watch out for being overrun by people with views that cannot be tolerated anymore“. It is very common in the community you are part of to openly discriminate and be bigoted like this. So I created a door, which while apparently ineffective, was intended to help create opportunities for myself to interact with people who may not share the same world view as me, because I truly do believe that it is possible to find common ground in many areas with people who don’t think like me, but if you block yourself off to all the people you stereotype and don’t agree with, you’re never going to get those opportunities. I’m being open. I want to have conversations with people outside of my own political sphere. I’m here, aren’t I? I am obviously very aware that the community I am part of has a very pronounced left political leaning that is different from my own, based on the many people I have visited whom are active within this community. It’s usually other people who are closed off to that due to their own bigotry. I did the same with my Cauldron page for the same reason. I am not Christian, and the spiritual views I hold would likely cause many Christians to do exactly the same thing. It is also very common for their community to openly discriminate against people who don’t believe in spirituality the same way they do. Just because I disagree with many Christians does not mean I am not willing to interact and potentially befriend them, but I am not oblivious to the fact that once Christians discover my spiritual beliefs, many wouldn’t dare to associate with me because of it. So for highly religious groups as well, I created a door, because again, spirituality is another very triggering topic to people and I’d rather people be willing to get to know me as a person rather than the political or spiritual stereotype they made up in their head for a group of people.

“I also find the warning impractical; it means if I choose to look at it and decide we do not vibe and disengage, I can be blamed for looking – as if it could have been all fine and dandy if I just had not looked. But who wants friends that have a part of them that you cannot look at, online or offline? I want to know you wholly, and I want to accept you for who you are. I am sure other people feel similarly. The warning seems like it can be treated as a get-out-of-jail-free card, putting the onus on the viewer and not the person who is offering the content. But it doesn’t free you from any responsibility, feedback or consequences from what is behind it.”

I have a lot to say about this. When you choose to enter, you are doing so based on the agreement you made that you are open to views that may be different or challenge your own. That’s the agreement you make when you enter this section, so yes, you can be blamed for looking if you choose to enter as it explicitly states on the warning page that you do so by giving your consent that you are open and tolerant of views which may be different or challenge your own. You have proven here that you are not tolerant of views that are different and challenge your own, so yes, you should not have entered and it is your own fault if you couldn’t handle it, because you were warned beforehand and you knew very well what you were getting yourself into. “Who wants friends that have a part of them that you cannot look at, online or offline” – you’re not my friend, Ava. If I get close enough to people that we become friends, it’s probably because they entered that page and actually are open and tolerant of views that were different than their own. The friends I want in my life are the people who choose to see me as a person beyond a political stereotype, which, based on your entire post about me, you’ve chosen to see me as a stereotype based on my political leaning rather than a person. Considering you are this way, you’re not the type of person I’m interested to befriend, but that doesn’t mean I can’t still be civil with you. “I want to know you wholly, and I want to accept you for who you are.” No, Ava, you don’t. You want to accept me for who I am ONLY on the condition that I first align with your political perceptions. If I don’t first meet that criteria, you’ve made it very clear how you will treat me when you said “Our spaces have a responsibility to watch out for being overrun by people with views that cannot be tolerated anymore“. I don’t base my friendships strictly on politics as you do. It’s easier to make friends with people I align with that way, yes, but I’m not going to completely blow off the opportunity to be someone’s friend just because I don’t agree with their political opinions. How narrow minded that would make me. While these topics are important to me, I know how to have friendships outside of politics and there are a plethora of other things to have in common with people other than politics. It is possible to never talk about politics with your friends. The sad thing about the world today is that a lot of folks do not know how to do that anymore. Both those who identify on the left and the right are guilty of this. They don’t want to associate with anyone outside of their little political bubble. I’m willing to, and actually believe we’d be a lot more productive as a society in getting our shit together if more people would. “The warning seems like it can be treated as a get-out-of-jail-free card, putting the onus on the viewer and not the person who is offering the content. But it doesn’t free you from any responsibility, feedback or consequences from what is behind it.” No, it certainly is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. They are my views, I’m not ashamed of them, again that’s why they’re on my website in the first place. The warning page, again while apparently ineffective, was meant to discourage people such as yourself from entering. If you’re intolerant/a bigot of folks who are outside of your political preference, and can’t handle certain views, and you click to see mine anyways and get pissed off, that’s on you, not me. I warned you not to go in there if you’re intolerant/a bigot, and you already knew it was going to be a section that held strong opinions and beliefs. I made it very clear that area of my site was not for you. I’m not going to buy that you didn’t realize you’re intolerant towards an entire group of people. You obviously know this about yourself already based on your reply to me. You knew very well what you were getting yourself into, you made the conscious decision to be dishonest that you were a tolerant individual of views that are different/challenge your own. Yet, you went in anyways. If you make that choice despite all of that, your feelings are not my responsibility. I didn’t force you in there, I did the opposite and told you not to if you couldn’t tolerate it.

“I think this is a great part to illustrate my points about the expectation certain people have about what the values and interests in the web revival scene (or “indie web”) is about. I’ve seen a lot of people talk about the freedom they have in this space being about

• freedom from surveillance, likes, follows and other numbers
• freedom from design constraints
• freedom from ads and addictive design
• freedom from outrage culture, doomscrolling and the pressure to perform
• freedom to post artistic nudity or other legal NSFW images that are censored for female nipples or genitalia on other platforms

As you can see, the promise of personal freedom in the web revival community can also attract people who are very into freedom of speech, which has the potential to include hate speech, propaganda, conspiracy theories, misinformation and others. They expect the freedom to extend to this and if it does not, that our promises of freedom are not true and our idea of freedom is flawed.”

You do not get to decide where freedom in this community begins and where freedom ends. That is not freedom. I could say your assumption that the things I believe are “conspiracy theories”, or your very open discriminating call for people to “watch out for being overrun by people with views that cannot be tolerated anymore” is hate speech directed towards those with political views you don’t agree with, and I could also say a lot of the things you believe in are propaganda and misinformation because I truly believe they are. Should the roles one day reverse where the web revival becomes overrun with people like myself with “views that cannot be tolerated anymore”, as you so gracefully put it, I suppose maybe we should just turn it around and do the exact same thing you’re trying to do to us? I am not the one with the flawed view of freedom here, calling for the web revival community to set those with more right leaning ideologies as outcasts. Please take a look in the mirror and first practice what you preach before you start preaching to others about hate speech, propaganda, etc.

“My personal experience is that many people who make free speech a core part of their online identity seem to also expect it to mean freedom from social repercussions for what you say. They not only want the stuff to remain up, but they also don’t want people to criticize it, or to withdraw based on what is said. No one should be allowed to think badly about them for it.

It’s hardly possible to fulfill that – you can never control what others think of you. We all must live with the perceptions others have of us, and as you have the right to say what you want to say, people have the right to make their decisions based on that.”

No, we do not expect it to mean freedom from social repercussions. Many of us have experienced social repercussions first hand for being vocal about our political views, we are no stranger to criticism. Why do you think so many of us are so bold to talk about it these days? We have no more F’s to give, because the bigger picture is of more importance to expose than the fear of what others think of us for it. People hated us for sharing anything that went against the promoted narrative when it came to the covid stuff, simply because they disagreed and had a different perception of the situation. If you genuinely cared or had any curiosity to be open and listen to the opposing side of the medical and scientific community, perhaps you’d get a glimpse of the bigger picture. But most people didn’t and it was simply easier to adopt the secondhand promoted biases from the promoted narrative via every bought out mainstream media outlet there is. But I digress. I don’t care if you think badly about me, but I’m not going to sit here and pretend there are moments I’m not frustrated with people and the state of how divided we are in the world, that we’ve completely lost touch with how to communicate with one another in a rational way that makes people feel heard on BOTH sides. Yes, it does frustrate me, and I wish it weren’t that way, but despite these feelings, treating me like a pariah is not going to change my world view or motivate me to win your approval, and I’m not going to stop talking about things that matter to me on my own website. I do agree with you on the point that you can never control what others think of you, and yes, I can live with the perception others have of me, be it positive or negative.

“People making the personal decision to disengage and enact their boundaries has nothing to do with authoritarianism. They are not forcing anyone to do anything. This is somewhat of a guilt tripping tactic – big tech is seen critically in this space, and authoritarianism is something people usually don’t like and is oppressive. It is manipulative to insinuate that people not hanging out with someone are aligning themselves morally with systems, structures and companies that act in highly unethical ways. If there are a lot of people disengaging with someone over their views, it should tell them something. And if they feel forced to change based on the social feedback, that is not the effect of authoritarianism, but a sign of the person seeking validation from others for their views and being sad that they don’t get it. “

I agree. People making the personal decision to disengage and enact their boundaries has nothing to do with authoritarianism. However, and I keep bringing it up because you’ve provided the perfect example; rallying the web revival community encouraging people to discriminate against other people with a certain political lens that you don’t agree with, is a great example of authoritarianism, and you attempting to manipulate a community to shun an entire group of people out, along with you telling people where their freedom in this community begins and where it ends. And there are many like you with this same mindset in this community, which yes, is very authoritarian. I can assure you, our views will not change based on the social feedback of those with a different political lens. But I’m not going to pretend it isn’t disappointing that there is such an authoritarian foothold in a community that’s supposedly based on web liberation, that people here are not at the very least more open to communicate with folks outside of their echo chambers.

“I think this part is fitting to showcase my point about the safety of some of the minorities and other vulnerable groups who have found a place in the web revival sites. Attracting people who think critical views about people of color, gay and trans people as well as women should have a place here can, in practice, mean that those groups are driven out because they don’t have the energy, time or headspace for these discussions. This is also known as the Tolerance Paradox – inviting the intolerant because of tolerance can create an intolerant environment.

What people similar to the original poster might overlook is that for many people, they are already confronted with the opposing and critical view their entire offline life – harassed on the street, ignorant comments by peers, kicked out of church, and your dad saying you’re not his child anymore. They have to argue about their validity and right to exist on a regular basis. Personally, it just took me walking my dog for a man to hit on me and then tell me I will die for being gay.

Playing the devils advocate online and expecting them to owe you that online too is a lot, and I understand if they don’t want to. Many of these people are already depressed or suicidal because of what they experience offline or in other online spaces, so it can be important to create a space where they don’t have to be dealing with that all the time. “

One compromise I can think of, instead of choosing to shun an entire group of people outside of this community, is to simply encourage that people put a warning ahead of any areas that hold strong opinions and views. The people who don’t want to deal with others venting their frustrations out online don’t have to see it unless they choose to.  And again, I will reiterate that bigotry is not one sided. I have seen on multiple occasions minority groups shun, be racist and hateful towards those outside of their own peer groups. It is a constant on Twitter. You see it coming from every group on Twitter, if you care to pay attention to it. What is implied here is that bigotry from minority groups is OK, because somehow their bigotry is justified and permittable because this has been allowed to be a safe space for those specific groups of people. But the same bigotry allowance is not permitted so long as it’s not coming from the groups you favor? Bigotry sucks across the board. I don’t think ANY of us are in favor of bigotry, yet, most of us are guilty in actively participating in it against one group or another. Minority groups do not get a pass for being a bigot, sorry, but they don’t. No one does. So if we’re going to set that standard of not ever saying anything negative about anyone, it’s going to have to be across the board, even including the groups you yourself don’t like. You don’t get to pick and choose and say “these groups are off limits to hate on, but these groups over here are acceptable to be treated as pariahs”. Surely, you can see the hypocrisy in that.

I do sympathize with you though, truly. No one should be harassed on the street or kicked out of church, or disowned by their parents. I’m not soulless, you know. Just because I do not agree with you on some topics, does not mean I do not have heart, or that I absolutely can not see from your perspective with these things. I do. And I’m sorry to hear you had the experience while walking your dog. That was a very cruel thing for that man to say and some people are just A-holes that lead miserable lives. I understand why you want to have walls up in this community. I understand you feel like you have your defenses up everywhere else and the small web is where you feel like you can let down you defenses. I know these feelings are rooted in fear of the unknown and your perceived negative consequences should it change. I am not here to tear down your defenses or make you feel like this space is not a space you can free your mind, although I know you perceive it that way. You don’t have to agree with my world view, but when I look at the world and how divided we’ve become, a lot of factors had a play in that. Social conditioning has played a major role, while you may not believe that, it’s very pronounced in media we consume on a regular basis, done skillfully in subliminal ways through entertainment, the news and information we consume, social media, etc. You might not be able to see it, but I do, I notice it regularly, and over the years it has cultivated more and more divide between people. Folks don’t realize how much of what we consume actually impacts our culture as a whole. It seems we divide on almost every topic these days. Women vs. men, black vs. white, religion vs. religion (or lack there of), lgbt+ vs straight, right vs. left, etc etc. It is by design that we are divided in so many ways (and yes, I already assume and acknowledge that you don’t believe that it’s by design, and that’s fine, we’ll agree to disagree on that). People were not nearly this aggressive and divided 10-20 years ago, but in recent years it’s gotten to be very bad. But another thing that has been cultivated is that despite the endless methods of communication we have, we’ve lost the ability to actually communicate. Communication has become us talking AT each other instead of TO each other, and that’s a major problem we’re collectively suffering with. And while you may think folks like you and folks like myself have nothing in common with each other, we actually have plenty in common. People like myself who discover the small web realize how special it is. I too, remember the old web and the soul and spirit it once held before corporations took it over. What the small web is right now, is a seed of opportunity. A seed to potentially restore the spirit of what was the internet, during a period where people were a lot more at peace with each other. And maybe part of you is afraid that should people like me become more prominent in this community, that it’ll ruin that vision, but truly, it won’t, because it is a common vision. I think we have an opportunity to set the clock back, because although you don’t see things from my perspective, what we both comprehend is that the version of the internet that came before big tech was very different, and that WE as a collective interacted very different then too. But this vision is not to be limited to just specific groups of people. The old web belonged to all of us, even the people you don’t like, and at some point, an olive branch on all sides of the political/social spectrum needs to be extended if we ever want to bridge the gaps and find genuine healing. Pushing away everyone you don’t like doesn’t actually fix the root of the problem. We need to relearn how to talk TO each other again, and in a space where we all share a collective vision of what the old web was, it’s the perfect opportunity to start doing that. The old web, that is free from big tech, manipulative algorithms and spoon-fed information, is the perfect place to start cultivating healing. Healing is not a light and fluffy process, unfortunately. A lot of damage has been done and it’s going to take time for people to reprogram out of hostility from all sides. But it’s something for us to collectively work at and eventually I believe we will get to a better place.

“I think a big issue for people who may not be the target of the criticism and phobia they post online is that it is so abstract to them – talking about racism, or LGBT is a pastime they can choose to opt in to. It is similar to discussing what ice cream flavor is better, because they have no stakes in the discussion whether gay people deserve to live their lives or not. Regardless of what is happening or true, they can continue to live their white, or cisgender, or straight lives. Meanwhile, the people affected by the discourse, the people that are often talked about like a theoretical problem who cannot read the hateful stuff said about them, just cannot opt out of that – they cannot stop being black, or being trans, or being gay, or being a woman. It’s not a thought experiment for them, but it informs their actual rights and safety while living their life. It can be scary seeing something particularly awful online and wondering – is this what people I see in the train or in the supermarket might think of me, too? What will the next election bring?”

Folks such as myself are also a target of criticism and phobia though from people such as yourself. I’ll bet you read that and rolled your eyes and think I’m playing the victim card because you see the group you associate me with as the oppressor, but it’s true. I’m not going to keep repeating the same example over and over about the things you’ve said earlier against me and the group you associate me with, because I think by now you get the point, but so much of what you’ve said about me and your open discrimination and call to the small web community to treat me and others like me like a pariah is proof of that. Left and right both hate each other. That’s quite evident, so there’s no point in pretending your group is innocent in all of this. I know very well that both groups are terrible for it, I’m not ignorant to see the both left AND right do it. But, I am one of the ones willing to extend an olive branch when it comes to these topics, and there are others like me who are willing to do the same. You take the most extreme examples of those who are more right minded and assume everyone is like that, and that’s simply not reality. And the same can be said for the left. I actually brought up my frustration on NoAgenda a few days ago about the left, and someone who leans left commented on it and it was a very pleasant exchange and a reminder for me that we are people, not our stereotypes and although we may associate ourselves with a certain political leaning, we are not all the same. Not everyone on the right is racist. Some are, sure. Just like some people of other races and political affiliations are racist against white people and any other race. Racism is not something that’s limited to a certain political leaning, or even a certain race. Every race is guilty of it, and a lot of people have deep ancestral wounds that never healed which contributes to that. Maybe you see it more from the right because that’s where you set your focus and personal bias against, but as for me speaking from the other side of the window, I see it on your side too. There aren’t any less of them over on your side from what I can see. But when it comes to you wondering what other people think of you when you’re on the train or in the supermarket, it’s like you said earlier; you can’t control what other people think of you. I think all we can really do is try to learn how to communicate better with each other, try and bridge some of these gaps and make and effort to create more understanding between people with different world views. God forbid, we may even learn to make compromises in society that work for everybody if that happens. Would that really be such a bad thing?

“And the thing is – what disagreement about these sensitive topics is not hateful at the core, realistically speaking? At best, the arguments are started with an exclamation of good intentions (“I have nothing against xyz people, but…”) and then continues with unsubstantiated claims, outdated and disproven science, wrong statistics, outright lies, or the call to limit or take away those groups’ rights or ban them and the mention of them from the public.

They should not be in teaching positions. This should not be taught in school. They should not be able to have children. They should not be in my locker room. They should not be able to be in the public bathroom. They should not be able to marry. They should not be in sports. They should not be able to get medical treatment. They should not be able to change their name. They should not be able to vote. They commit all the crimes, and all the domestic violence, and all the rape, and all the burglaries (exaggerated for comedic effect).”

Again, solving a lot of these things is going to require effort from both sides to extend an olive branch and unlearn some social conditioning. We need to start learning how to communicate better. Everybody does, because again, a lot would get resolved if we learned to talk to each other instead of at each other. Fear on both sides would start getting resolved, compromises could be made that work for everyone. When it comes to people’s kids, you gotta understand there’s a lot of mama and papa bears who are just trying to look out for the best interests of their children. It seems like you’re referencing to a lot of trans stuff here, so I hope where I’ve been willing to hear you out on some of the things you’ve said that you’ll reciprocate and be willing to hear me out as well.

Children are not mature enough to vote, get tattoos, drink, or make most life altering decisions that impact them and society. Children are very fickle. The human brain does not fully develop until mid-late 20’s. When asked the question “what do you want to be when you grow up?” they change their mind every other day. Yet, society is now telling them they are mature enough to make a very extreme, life altering choice that will potentially affect their ability to reproduce as an adult, and should their gender identity be a phase they one day grow out of, what are the long term repercussions of puberty blockers, hormone treatments, and bodily mutilation? That data doesn’t exist, because this has only begun for children in recent years, though, the voices of detransitioners do provide a glimpse if you’re willing to listen to those voices. And then when it comes to the teaching positions, many teachers today are hiding the trans stuff from parents regarding their children and that’s absolutely not okay. I’ve seen parents on Twitter being very vocal about that. That’s overstepping a huge boundary when it comes to parents, children, and the role of teachers. All that being said, there is a lot of justified anger from the mama and papa bears surrounding the trans stuff and their kids, because it presents some very real and potentially irreversible changes that may destroy their children’s lives when they get older, as well as their ability to reproduce, and there are those involved in the school system that are encouraging it behind parent’s backs.

And despite my vocalization on the trans stuff, I am not 100% against everything trans. You visited the Rabbit Hole, you obviously know I follow Blaire White. She’s the reason I’m not closed off to it altogether. You might not agree with her or like a lot of the things she has to say, but at the end of the day, she’s bridging the gap and helping the trans community from being completely and totally demonized by those with opposing views to yours. Most people on the right are not against the LGBs. Most have grown to be very accepting of the LGB part of the community, but the reason that acceptance has seen a decline the past few years is because what is happening with the T+ part of the community when it comes to the kids and women’s spaces, because people are feeling like their boundaries are being crossed and disrespected, and people are trying to vocalize that but it’s like the T+ side of the community absolutely does not care and isn’t willing to make any compromises. I am not sure if you’re aware of it, but the hashtag #LGBWithoutTheT has been trending often on Twitter the last couple of months. It isn’t just the right that’s been pushing back on this, but even people in your own community on the LGB side because a lot of them don’t support what’s happening either, and they don’t want to be lumped in with what’s happening. However, there are folks such as myself that would be willing to make compromises for the trans community. Take the bathroom issue for example. I’d be perfectly happy if we got rid of the traditional male/female restroom system and just converted all bathrooms to private rooms – like the private handicap restrooms that are fully walled and have a locking door, just make more of those kind of private restrooms available for everyone’s use. Bathroom issue solved.

That’s just one example of a solution that would work for everyone, respect everyone’s boundaries, and make everyone feel safe and considered. Compromises that work for both sides are out there if you’re willing to see and consider them, but the problem is that both sides of the debate are so headstrong and stubborn, it’s the “my way only” mentality and that’s just not going to work on either side, and the more you fight and push back and enforce the “my way only” mentality, the more of a pushback you’re going to continue to see from the other side. Another thing with the trans stuff, is a lot of people would be more accepting of the trans community if they just left people’s kids out of it. Before the trans community started involving people’s kids, there wasn’t so much debate around the trans stuff and people were not so aggressively against it. That’s not saying trans folks ever had it easy, but it was never anywhere near this bad until they started involving children, and all these medical treatments and surgery, and the school system hiding things from parents. Personally, I could care less whatever you identify as or whatever you want to do with your body. It’s your body, do what you want when you turn of legal age at 18 or 21. That’s the compromise that’ll invite peace on this particular issue; do what you want when you’re legally an adult and hopefully you’ll have enough brain development then to be fully understanding of the gravity of those potential negative consequences, and that this isn’t just some phase you’re going to grow out of a few months or a couple years down the road. When you hit 18, do whatever you want with your body, be fully informed of the potential consequences of the decision beforehand so you know what you’re getting into, and live your life. There’s always going to be people that still don’t like that, you can’t please everyone that’s an impossible goal, but it’s an olive branch for the mama and papa bears who – up until that point – hold the responsibility of raising and protecting their children from potential harm. Once the kids are adults, whatever choices they make that impact them are their own responsibility at that point, not the parents, and that’s why I suggest leaving that discussion for 18+.

As for marriage, I agree with you. Everyone should be able to marry the love of their life regardless of gender. That’s a decision that doesn’t affect anyone except those involved in the relationship, so it’s no one else’s business. I have always supported the LGB side of the community, and will continue to do so. As for your other points, yes, you are right and I agree, we can’t pin certain activities on entire demographics of people, and I will extend that by saying, we also can’t pin certain behaviors to an entire demographic of people based on their political leaning. Both of those things are stereotypes and not an accurate representation of reality, only a reflection of limited world views mostly formed from our most negative experiences with the worst of them.

“Now in this part and some I have not directly quotes, they utilize unifying language about “bridging gaps”, “stepping out of echo chambers” and utopian imagery like “world peace” and “collective healing” to seem inviting and open to everyone. An issue I take with that is that it is introducing the expectation of “I accept you and everyone else, so you need to accept me unconditionally too”. I’ve seen this before, and in my personal experience, discovering that they do not actually accept everyone, or maybe not even you, doesn’t seem to hinder this expectation at all. You’re seemingly expected to uphold respect for someone who doesn’t have respect for you. If you criticize their views or choose to drop or block them, you are not upholding “your end of the deal” in their eyes. It is a deal you neither agreed to nor are obliged to uphold. Be on the lookout for this tactic.”

Again, Ava, it’s about extending an olive branch, not a “tactic” lol. Your perception that I have the expectation that everything is going to magically be perfect is not realistic and not what I’m advertising. What I am offering is a start. Planting a seed, if you will, that will hopefully grow and become better with time. As the saying goes, Rome wasn’t built in a day. We all have a lot of work to do when it comes to unifying, healing, and bridging the gaps, and none of that will ever happen unless people from all sides start extending an olive branch, be willing to put differences aside for the sake of a better future, and hopefully start learning to communicate with each other rather the just talking at each other.

“Another issue: The usage of “hive mind”. It was used twice in the blog post, and both times it implied that people who have certain views, or disagree with the original poster, are not doing so out of their free will – they have been brainwashed, controlled, or just doing what others do. We associate it with weak minded individuals who are too stupid to form their own opinion. This view doesn’t foster respectful discussion with growth and acceptance. It enables the people who use it to immediately disqualify opposing view points as just “of the hive mind” and not worth engaging with. It devalues the opposing person immediately. “Their viewpoint wasn’t worth considering, they were just saying the stuff of the hive mind. Them turning away from me and wanting to have nothing to do with me is not bad – they were just controlled by the hive mind and had nothing worthwhile to offer anyway.” It is just used to make oneself feel better about things, and telling oneself that you are a part of the very small group of people who are really, really smart and just get it. This behavior has nothing to do with “actual communication, being a willing participant in listening” or “hearing the other person”.

You will also be the only person in this exchange stepping out of the supposed echo chamber – the original poster is spending the most time being active on a Mastodon instance completely aligned with their views, ironically even posting about retreating from other places such as Twitter/X for content reasons. The other spaces are just used to drive traffic to the website and webring, not to engage with people – more about that now.”

Let me clarify what I mean by hive mind. I think when folks act as a collective mind and operate on “group think” rather than individually thinking and coming to their own conclusions, this is what a hive mind is from my perception. Coming back, yet again, to your example of trying to get an entire community to disassociate with a group of people holding a certain political affiliation, in that circumstance, you are trying to stimulate a hive mind response as a lot of the small web shares your political views. And yes, I also believe a lot of social conditioning has a big part to play in cultivating a hive mind from all sides. It’s the tribalistic box people are stuck in today. Both the left and the right have a hive mind, your group isn’t the only one who has it. You’re also putting a lot of words in my mouth I never said. I do not believe people are stupid and can’t think for themselves, but I do believe people are very easily influenced and manipulated and that is an inherent flaw in our species, that we are prone to social conditioning, manipulation, and tribalism. We get stuck thinking as our tribal hive mind rather than stepping outside of that box, and not being overly attached to whether our words and actions would be socially accepted by the tribe/hive you have loyalty to. If all you’re willing to listen to and accept is your own echo chamber, and your harping the same things as your echo chamber, and unwilling to step foot outside of the echo chamber to consider thoughts and ideas different from your own, it’s group think. I’m not perfect by any means, and yes, I do have my own echo chambers that I hang out in, but I also hang out in areas that aren’t an echo chamber, such as the small web which is very dominantly politically left, and I also have other fediverse accounts on other instances that are dominantly politically left. I hear a lot of different points of view all the time and it is also because of that that I have considered ideas that offer compromises between different groups. That’s why I think it’s important more people should try to step out of the hive mind/tribe every once in awhile. It may be quite an enlightening experience and prove to be fruitful in a way that actually progresses humanity forward rather than the current continuous spiral into oblivion.

“After discussing the website and Mastodon content as well as this blog post, this is now the final bit I want to caution about. The original poster has been promoting that webring pretty strongly, and making an account on a forum solely to post that promotion and be gone again. No introduction post, no other engagement with threads; just enough in the profile to lead back to their content and the webring.

Be careful when people arrive out of nowhere with a curated and semi-professional representation already online, become extremely active and visible in a short amount of time with accounts everywhere, and are very vocal about advertising something like a webring, or in other cases maybe an instance, a Discord server and similar spaces. These can be recruitment grounds. Hiding content away behind a warning gives plausible deniability to that, which is an issue, because they clearly want you to find that and it will come up in personal conversation. People can lure you in with being nice and then slowly drop the act around you, slowly upping what kind of content they share with you. At best, you are now in a webring you may not have joined if you had known, but at worst, it is the beginning of a radicalization pipeline that starts with the slow normalization of dehumanizing and offensive views based on a warped perception of centrism, fairness, or healing humanity. People can appeal to your desire to be fair and give chances, and abuse that.

The people I talked about are already here. It is now on us to decide what we individually, or as hosters of spaces within the web revival or “indie web”, are doing about it.”

Yes, I have a webring and I’m obviously going to promote it because if I don’t, there’s no point in even hosting one if no one knows about it. As for the forum post I made, are you referring to SpaceHey? You certainly follow me around everywhere for someone who really doesn’t like me, don’t you? Somehow you’re in all the same areas and message boards I happen to post in. It would seem you’re intentionally seeking me out in those spaces and keeping up-to-date with where I am active, which by all means, your welcome to continue to do so if I’ve been that intriguing to you. I’m flattered to see my content has peaked your interest enough to divide your time into doing that. Anyhow, It’s been just over a week since I made my SpaceHey account, and I have actually posted other than my webring. I joined a couple of groups, and the first post I even made there was about a youtuber I used to follow years ago during the “scene/emo” era to see if anyone else remembered her. You’re wrong in assuming my intentions of joining was solely to post about my webring. I joined because it was a throwback to the Myspace days, and I miss those days. But since I’m on there, of course I’m going to share my webring. The people who are on that site are part of the web revival and make use of webrings to discover other people’s sites in the community. It’s a no brainer that I’m going to share my webring there so you really shouldn’t be surprised by this.

As for my website being semi-professional? I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. My website is obviously very personal and I’ve put a lot of work and care into it. I’m not even making money off of it. I threw in a couple affiliate links for things I already own, and books I’ve read, but I hardly count that as something professional. I’ve been in the blogging sphere a long time so I’ve picked up various ways to potentially make a little extra, but it’s never guaranteed. Maybe you’ve developed this impression of me because you’ve observed I know how to get myself out there, or something to do with the design. I’m a professional graphic designer and have dabbled in web design for over a decade. I’m flattered you think it looks professional 😅 while I know you didn’t mean it as a compliment, when it comes to design, that is what I went to school for so it very much is a compliment, so thank you. If it’s about me getting myself out there, to me it’s just common sense if you want to be discovered, you post about what you want to share and be active so people can find you. As for hiding my content away, I’m not going to rehash that, go back and read what I said earlier. I’m not “luring” people in or pretending to be anything I’m not, I’m very transparent. Everything is here out in the open on my site, and nothing is preventing you from going past my warning pages as you already have, but you can’t pretend like you have absolutely no idea what you’re getting into when I’m quite open about the kind of content you can expect behind the wall. Pretending you hold no responsibility in your own decision-making when it comes to accessing those pages, however, isn’t going to slide, but again, that’s something I’m not going to rehash, go back and read what I said earlier about it if you want a rehash.

As for the webring, since I made my Freedom of Speech post, I put right on my join page in the disclaimer under the rules that this is a webring that supports free speech. If you prefer to remain intolerant of those with different views to yours, by all means, don’t join. But this webring will remain open for those who discover it, want to branch out and challenge themselves, water the seed that has potential to unify us, and see how it grows. I don’t believe it will be the hate-filled image you have set in your mind. I understand your fear based on your perception, but I really do believe it is something that will help humanity’s healing process in the long run. Like I said earlier, it’s not going to be an overnight process. That’s an unrealistic expectation, and healing doesn’t work that way. But it’s extending the olive branch, providing an opportunity for people of all views to come together, and over time, heal as we share a more unified space rather than constantly staying divided in our tribalistic echo chambers/hive mind. I reiterate that I think the small web is a really great opportunity for this to happen, because at the core, we all share the same vision, and even with some differences in perception, we ultimately see the same problems with the internet today that weren’t present in the old web. We all want the heart and soul of the old web to return, and I think in time, with that common intention and desire, that is what we will all be moving towards and things will get better. And perhaps as things begin to get better here, it can extend outwards in other areas of the internet as well. So join or don’t join this webring that may or may not become a movement. It may not become anything at all, perhaps months will go by and no one will join, and I’m fine with that outcome too. I’m not forcing you to join, but like you said, people like me are here. You can try your hardest to shut us out, but in the end it’s only hurting everyone more, even your group, because it’s building the wall higher, increasing the divide, cultivating more hatred between groups, which will never solve anything, and makes it so that we’re all bound to our own echo chambers. As for myself, I will continue to be here, continue to post, continue to share my webring and get it out there on the various platforms I frequent, and try to cultivate something good in this space. And feel free to surprise me and join the ring if you change your mind. My invitation remains open to you.

Lastly, I had and still have your button up in the Clubhouse tab of my main page in the section of pages I recommend because I think your site is great. Your site is very creative and I wanted to share it so other people can find it. My opinion about your creativity and your website have not changed because you dislike me and publicly disapprove of my world view. However, I did notice you made a post that you don’t like people whom don’t align with your world view sharing your button, because you think we’re against you. I’m not automatically against you because we have conflicting world views, even though I know you feel that way, I just want you to know that. I will respect your feelings, however, and be removing your button from my website this evening so you don’t have to ask me to.

I wish you and anyone reading this all the best. My feelings are genuine that I hope we can one day cultivate a unifying space together, despite our many differences. I believe it is possible and we have a lot more in common than you might think, although I know you are unable to see it.